Key changes (modulations) within a song

[cerveau]

We jazz players have 2-5-1's all over the place.
It's often easier to think of a 2-5-1 (or similar changes) as being in a temporary new key.

Case in point: Blue Bossa:
Measures 5 through 8 are a standard 2-5-1 in the key of C minor.
Measures 9 through 12 are shown in number font as b3-6-b2.
It's much easier, however, to think of measures 9 through 12 as a 2-5-1 in the temporary new key of Db major.

There are countless other songs with temporary key changes.
Can iRealPro incorporate this?

 

[Bobsax]

I don't know?? Could be a big can-0-worms As a jazzer gone bluegrass I think you should just go with the b3 -6 b2 . The Nashville guys have been doing it for quite awhile. Relate it all to the original key then transposing is a breeze.

 

[dflat]

It's much easier, however, to think of measures 9 through 12 as a 2-5-1 in the temporary new key of Db major.
There are countless other songs with temporary key changes.
Can iRealPro incorporate this?

It does not currently. I understand what you mean as this can happen in a section (like bridge, chorus) where it is in another key and indicated as you are suggesting. There are no plans to add this. I presume you are using the player, because if it was just a chart you were wanting, you could add text to indicate the key as you normally would on paper but create the chords as if based in the one key so the numbers translate correctly.

 

[cerveau]

I don't know?? Could be a big can-0-worms As a jazzer gone bluegrass I think you should just go with the b3 -6 b2 . The Nashville guys have been doing it for quite awhile. Relate it all to the original key then transposing is a breeze.

Really?... Well thanks for educating me here... I would have thought the Nashvillers would just say something like: "do a 2-5 to the 4", or "do a 2-5 to b3", because that transposes just as easy, and is still easier (in my mind at least) to understand the underlying pattern.
I know of many jazzer guitarists who like me use the system I'm referring to, but hey, if Nashvillers do it like you say, then hey... you bluegrasser and Nashviller guys are pretty awesome musicians so I'll take that under advisement.

 

[cerveau]

It does not currently. I understand what you mean as this can happen in a section (like bridge, chorus) where it is in another key and indicated as you are suggesting. There are no plans to add this. I presume you are using the player, because if it was just a chart you were wanting, you could add text to indicate the key as you normally would on paper but create the chords as if based in the one key so the numbers translate correctly.

Great idea, dflat!
Why didn't I think of that?... ;-)
Thx!

 

[cerveau]

Btw, that would make for a nice blog article.

 

[dflat]

For anyone else interested:
Sometimes a minor song is written in numbers set in its relative major, so in this example, it would start with 6-
and if you want to be 'true' to the generic nature of NN, you might then add some text like 'mod down b7 (b7 = 1)' for that section
(Eb to Db)

(If you start off as 1- you could make it clear that the mod up a half step (or b2) is in a major key just for aural reference, but I suppose it does not really matter)
(Cm to Db maj)

Also if I was doing a chart only I would write some text somewhere otherwise someone might Play it and it would be completely wrong

 

[DaveBuergerOnBass]

Curious if there's anything new happening to support multiple key changes within a song.

For example, I want to chart the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." The song has five key changes from one section to another. Another song, "Two O'Clock Jump" has one key change in the middle of the song. Is this possible in 2024? Thank you.

 

[pdxdjazz]

Curious if there's anything new happening to support multiple key changes within a song.

For example, I want to chart the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." The song has five key changes from one section to another. Another song, "Two O'Clock Jump" has one key change in the middle of the song. Is this possible in 2024? Thank you.

Short answer: nothing new

If the song easily fits on one page, just write the chart “as played”.

If a more lengthy chart than will fit on one page is required for performance use, write the song out “as played” top to bottom across multiple pages.
Song title p.1, song title p.2 etc…. Then you can easily swipe to the next page through the song. Select the most convenient spots to make the page breaks.
If you choose to make the page break at a key change, it’s helpful to specify the new key over the last bar before the break using text “new key” and using the small alternate chord entry field, the new key. I use the alt-chords so they’ll transpose with the chart (when and if).
)BOB

 

[DaveBuergerOnBass]

Short answer: nothing new

If the song easily fits on one page, just write the chart “as played”.

If a more lengthy chart than will fit on one page is required for performance use, write the song out “as played” top to bottom across multiple pages.
Song title p.1, song title p.2 etc…. Then you can easily swipe to the next page through the song. Select the most convenient spots to make the page breaks.
If you choose to make the page break at a key change, it’s helpful to specify the new key over the last bar using text “new key” and using the small alternate chord entry field, the new key. I use the alt-chords so they’ll transpose with the chart (when and if).
)BOB

That's what I thought -- thanks for the response. The two-change song will be straightforward. As for Brian Wilson's five-change song, I'll have to consume a mind-changing substance and settle for the complex approach -- if the band chooses to play this one. Really makes you appreciate his genius diving under the hood. I never suspected that much was going on with the song ... probably as a bass player, I was trying to keep up with Carol Kaye's bassline virtuosity! : )

 

[BShep]

Handling keycChanges within a song

One way to make a song more interesting is to modulate to a new key. Is there any way to notate a key change in iReal other than just ignoring the "Key Signature" setting and typing in the appropriate chords (and maybe putting a text comment that says "KEY CHANGE")?

One way I've handled this in the past is to create two charts, call them "Song_Title_Page_1" and "Song_Title_Page_2" and put the modulation at the end of page 1. Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to have both page 1 and page 2 playback as a single song.

Suggestions?

 

[CyrilleB]

This is what I usually do on charts that have key changes. I write as text comments "key chg: 1 step up)" as an example.

 

[Decambrelion]

Hi

Are mudulations (key changes) within a song still impossible in iReal?

 

[Decambrelion]

I asked AI this same question. It turns out this is not an implemented feature in iRealPro2 at this time, unfortunately.


"Question: is it possible in iReal pro 2 to write modulations (key changes) into the sheet?

Response: Yes—but not as a true, internally recognized key change.

In iReal Pro, you can write the chords of a modulation into the chart and have them play correctly, but iReal Pro currently does not have a “change key here” command that changes the displayed key signature from that point onward. The current documentation and forum discussions confirm this.

The practical way to do it​

For example, suppose your song starts in C major and then modulates to D♭ major:


Cmaj7 | Am7 | Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | F7 | Bb7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Dbmaj7 | ... ↑ NEW KEY: Db

You would:

1. Keep the song's overall key set to C.
2. Enter the later chords as they actually occur: Dbmaj7, Ab7, etc.
3. Add a text annotation such as NEW KEY: Db at the modulation point.
4. iReal will play the chords correctly.

The important limitation is that iReal still considers the whole song's original key when deciding how to spell chords and when transposing.

If you're using Number Notation​

This matters even more.

If you're wanting something like:

C major
1 | 6- | 2-7 | 57 |

then modulation to D♭ major and you want the next section to read:

1 | 6- | 2-7 | 5⁷ |

iReal cannot automatically reset 1 to the new tonic at the modulation. That's specifically one of the limitations users have been asking about for years.

If you tell me what kind of modulation you're trying to enter (e.g. C → D♭, or C → E♭ for a bridge), I can show you the exact way I'd enter it into iReal Pro 2, including how to make the key change visible on the chart."

 

[Bobsax]

For those of us that use a notation program like MuseScore or Finale this is one of the easiest things you can do. You simply copy and paste then press the transpose button. Maybe it’s not possible but it would be nice if we could highlight eight bars or 16 then copy them then paste them in the original key then highlight them again and then use the magic button that doesn’t exist to raise every chord or lower every chord to whatever key you want.

 

[pdxdjazz]

For those of us that use a notation program like MuseScore or Finale this is one of the easiest things you can do. You simply copy and paste then press the transpose button. Maybe it’s not possible but it would be nice if we could highlight eight bars or 16 then copy them then paste them in the original key then highlight them again and then use the magic button that doesn’t exist to raise every chord or lower every chord to whatever key you want.

Yeah, iRp isn’t a notation program or a DAW.
To do what you describe in iRp, requires a couple of “extra” easy steps.

Open your chart in the editor, highlight/copy the section as above.
Open a NEW CHART in the editor and paste what you copied.
Transpose it as desired using SET AND TRANSPOSE
Highlight/copy (you may delete (not save) the new chart)
Open your 1st chart in the editor highlight where you want the newly transposed material and PASTE.

It took longer to write this than it takes to do it.
)BOB