Newbie needing help—chord scales/transposed instrument (Bb)

[tjjazz]

Newbie needing help—chord scales/transposed instrument (Bb)

Hello!

Apologies for asking what is most likely a common question but I've spent a good amount of time watching tutorials, videos, and reading the online manual and I'm still confused.

I'm running iRP v8.0.2 on my iMac as well as on my iPad. Right now all I want to do is input some chord changes so that I can practice improvising over them on my B flat trumpet.

I read a post about transposing but I did not understand the answer.

If I put a G maj scale in to iRP, do I set the Key signature to the transposing instrument? B flat? When I input the chord to G I get an A, which is not the scale I should be playing.

I watched this video https://vimeo.com/51040860 which has a "scales" option at the bottom. My version of iRP does not have that. Has this been changed in the later versions?

Thanks for your help!

-tj in the Cruz Mtns

 

[pdxdjazz]

Transposing can be confusing.

I assume you have the global transpose feature activated and set to Bb. That automatically DISPLAYS all your charts in your transposed key while the player plays in the concert key.

When you open (or write) a song in the editor, IT IS DISPLAYED IN CONCERT KEY.

Your song is in G concert. That is how it should appear in the editor. The song's default key (in the editor) should be set to G.
Click "Done".
In song view, it will display in A but the player will play it in G. If you transpose the chart further in song view it will get very confusing. (but the player will still play a whole-step below the displayed chords in the chart)

Find the guitar/ukulele/piano chord diagrams (the BIG ones) that change while the player plays. That is where the chord scales diagrams are selected. (Not the small diagrams throughout the chart found in FONTS)

https://www.irealpro.com/version-history/
)BOB

 

[tjjazz]

Bob,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Yes, I have "Transposing instrument" in prefs set to Bb and set the editor for the song the key is in.

I guess I don't understand the value in having the player display in A. As a novice improviser I need/want to see the notes in the chords as I play along. To me that's one of the key values of the tool, not just hearing the chords, but seeing the notes as the change progresses.

Regards,
TJ

Transposing can be confusing.

I assume you have the global transpose feature activated and set to Bb. That automatically DISPLAYS all your charts in your transposed key while the player plays in the concert key.

When you open (or write) a song in the editor, IT IS DISPLAYED IN CONCERT KEY.

Your song is in G concert. That is how it should appear in the editor. The song's default key (in the editor) should be set to G.
Click "Done".
In song view, it will display in A but the player will play it in G. If you transpose the chart further in song view it will get very confusing. (but the player will still play a whole-step below the displayed chords in the chart)

Find the guitar/ukulele/piano chord diagrams (the BIG ones) that change while the player plays. That is where the chord scales diagrams are selected. (Not the small diagrams throughout the chart found in FONTS)

https://www.irealpro.com/version-history/
)BOB

 

[pdxdjazz]

Have you found the CHORD SCALES diagrams that can be displayed measure by measure during play?

Those diagrams should be helpful to you.
iReal pro is a chord chart app.

I play with a clarinetist (also a Bb instrument). He has learned how to read/follow the chord changes in concert-key charts. For example, he's happy looking over another player's shoulder at a C - RealBook. Instead of using a Bb - RealBook. My point: you don't have to use the global transpose feature. It's optional.
)BOB

 

[tjjazz]

Bob,

I fear either I'm doing something wrong or not communicating clearly.

I think that I AM using the chord scales diagrams, and they're the ones that are reading concert whilst I'm playing a Bb chord. For a newbie, I can't transpose on the fly and pay attention to the measure I'm on as well as the notes in the chords.

Regards,
TJ

Have you found the CHORD SCALES diagrams that can be displayed measure by measure during play?

Those diagrams should be helpful to you.
iReal pro is a chord chart app.

I play with a clarinetist (also a Bb instrument). He has learned how to read/follow the chord changes in concert-key charts. For example, he's happy looking over another player's shoulder at a C - RealBook. Instead of using a Bb - RealBook. My point: you don't have to use the global transpose feature. It's optional.
)BOB

 

[dflat]

From what I can understand, you want to improvise with some chords with your Bb trumpet. As you know there is the concert key and a different key for trumpet. The trumpet chords you want to practice with on trumpet will need to be transposed to concert before you save the song and start the player.
The easiest way to do this is to input your trumpet chords, then transpose to concert before saving.

Create a new song, title it and set the key (of the chords for your trumpet, meaning, if you have some G major scales to practice on trumpet or the song is in your trumpet key of G or the chord progressions are based in G, then set it to G.) Change the key to G and click the Set button.
Choose a default playback style (as you probably know, you can change this in song view).
Enter a time signature, add barlines and chords as required.
Once finished, you will need to transpose this song to Concert key a whole step (tone) below, in this case, change the key to F and click the Set and Transpose button. Save, Close.

Make sure Global transpose is set for your trumpet, in Prefs set to Bb instrument. You will now see it back to G, but the player will know it in F concert, which is what you should see bottom right in the Key window (if it is not set to F, then change it there).

You will need to be able to think in both your concert key and your trumpet Bb key but this will come over time as you deal with keys. The player needs to be set to the song's concert key; songs need to be either created in concert or entered in the instrument's key, then Set and Transpose to concert key before saving so you need to be able to convert in your head from your key to concert key to do this last step.
In song view, the player thinks in concert key and this is the key you choose in the Key window (and this only works if you have correctly saved concert chords and specified its key in concert in edit mode).

For the future, here are a few other keys to help you convert. The first key is your trumpet (Bb) key, the second is concert.
G - F
D - C
E - D
A - G
G - F
C - Bb

If you want to change a few of the chords of a practice song for further learning, you could duplicate the song, in Edit mode, change the chords back to your trumpet key (temporarily) (up a whole tone so it is showing in your trumpet key again) using Set and Transpose (in this case, to key G), make your changes, then (key F) Set transpose back down to concert before you save.

As you progress, you can use these same charts (songs) as practice for other keys. For instance, your F (concert) song you entered above (seen by you in G) can be transposed in Song view using the soft transpose menu (bottom right). For example if you want to practice these chords now in your trumpet's key of D, then change it to C (concert key). It will play in concert C but show you the chords in D.

When you turn on scales, these will show in your trumpet's key (assuming Global transpose is set to Bb).

I hope this helps.

 

[pdxdjazz]

I may have misunderstood your question. I thought you meant that G was your concert key (A transposed for your instrument). It appears you meant that G was the transposed for your instrument key. (F concert)
Just follow dflat's helpful explanation. (Thanks)
)BOB

 

[tjjazz]

Thanks to both dflat and Bob for the information.

While I'm a "re-entry" player I do understand basic music theory, as well as the distinction between the key of my horn, other instruments, and concert.

I've spent several hours with iRP and have tried dflat's suggestions, but I still can't get it to work in a way that is helpful. Unless one of you is personally responsible for iRP's interface you should not take my comments personally. I find the product very hard to use, and in this case, it's getting in the way of me actually practicing. I'm spending way more time just trying how to input chords so that I can play along, than I am actually playing my horn. I can see that the app has great power but I don't think that it's well suited to me at this point.

I realize that there is a lot of complexity in jazz chords and improvisation and that by nature a tool like this is going to be hard to design. It's simply too confusing for me right now. Hopefully as my skill set and knowledge base improve I'll be able to come back to it, but even something as simple as inserting bar lines seems confusing (do I use my mouse to click where I want the bar line? space bar? tab?) I've gotten it to play chords that I've input, but they've not really been useful due to the whole tranpsosition thing.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond, I hope to return some day when I understand all of this better.

Sincerely,
TJ

 

[dflat]

Hello TJ,
You could tell us exactly what you want to do, with some chords you want to work with in the key of your trumpet (attach a jpg, or type them in here) perhaps 16 bars or something and we can help you more.
Also how you want to practice and what you want the player to do to assist this.

iReal Pro works for many players to learn their material so there would be ways it can help you. Also if we describe it here, others who come across this thread may find it useful.
Thanks.

 

[tjjazz]

dflat,

Attached is the chart and the changes that I want to practice. What I want to do is to input the chords for the solo (G, E7+9, A7 Ami7/D, G7+9, etc.) and then play along with it. I would like to use the chord scales function so that I can see the notes in each change in the key of my Bb trumpet, and play along with the changes so that I can internalize the notes, chords, and progression.

One thing I find particularly challenging, and this is not endemic only to iRP, is that the language of jazz chords is subject to lots of inconsistencies. (If I type E7 iRP recognizes this but it does not recognize +9, so I'm not sure if I use the #9 notation in this case). Another challenge as I've mentioned, is that it frequently barks at me because I don't construct the measures properly and I don't exactly understand where the chord goes in the measure (I assume right at the beginning) and then how many spaces (if any) go between it and other chord in the same measure. I also don't really understand how to insert the end bar. Again, do I tab, or just click my mouse ahead a bit, or space bar? iRP sometimes tells me that it can't understand my measures. I don't recall the exact language.

I'm far from computer illiterate, and I am semi-proficient at video editing tools such as Premiere Pro and others, so I feel like the application could be easier to use.

Here' the chart, as well as the changes, and then what I've got in iRP. Ignore that the current key sig is set to G. As you'll see it should be in F based on the fact that the first chord is an F (concert) but it's displaying G (transposed to trumpet as dflat instructed. I was noodling around trying to change something and couldn't figure out how to get it back to where it was and I've already created about 5 versions of this chart just trying to practice and I didn't want to delete it another time.

Thanks again,
TJ

 

[dflat]

TJ, it looks like you are practicing the chart in edit mode.
Your chords are in F, so check the key is also set to F in the floating edit window, and click Set (not Set and transpose as the chords are already in F) (these two need to match).
At the bottom of the edit window, save and close.

This will bring you back to normal song view mode. Check it says G for key (bottom right). Press Spacebar to play.
Does this work for you?

I can prepare an iReal Pro chart for your chords if you would like me to, but if this helps you, you could try yourself with the previous instructions and let us know how you are doing with this.

 

[tjjazz]

dflat,

I have changed the chords to F in the edit window, although that's confusing. I guess it's because I need to think in concert key because to me the chart is in Gmaj (one sharp, F).

I closed the edit window and yes, in normal song view mode I have G check in the bottom right. It plays chords, but again, they're concert scales, which does not help me. I can't transpose those scales on the fly. I want/need to see the actual notes for a Gmaj scale (G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G) for each chord so I can learn them. Your previous instructions of setting the chords so that they displayed in Bb worked but I was fighting other issues.

I honestly do not understand how someone learning to improvise over chords is going to learn by having concert chords and scales displayed. I might as well not even look at the screen and just use iRP to play the music. Of course this requires me to write out the changes (until I know them all by heart)on a sheet of paper, in which case I could find other recordings of the changes to play over.

What am I missing?

TJ

PS-thanks for sticking with me, but I really don't understand how this tool is useful for a novice improviser.

 

[dflat]

The chord/scale window might need refreshing. This could happen if you have been playing around with the Global transpose in Prefs. Set it to Bb for your trumpet, then change the soft transpose key in song view (bottom right) to another key then back to Concert key (this refreshes it). You should now see the chord chart set to your trumpet key and if you click on a measure, the scale for that chord should be seen.

-----

I made a simple song and show the input steps.
I created a new song and set the key to G (your trumpet key so you do not need to transpose each chord as you enter them, you just copy them in) [1]
To set the key, choose G from the Key signature drop down menu, then click the SET button and you should see two G letters there, one on the left to indicate it is set in G and the G from the menu window on its right.

Then I entered the G chords within the chart area with barlines and time signature.
After finishing the chart, I need to transpose to F as it needs to be in concert key, which is F. I chose F from the Key menu and clicked the Set and Transpose button. [2]
You can see it says F in both places in the Key signature area.

Save, close.

Make sure it is set to concert key (bottom right) (in this case, F).
Check Global transpose is set to Bb although you can see this written on the chart itself "Bb-Part".
Bring up the chord/scale window (control-C) and click on a measure. [3]
(If it does not correspond, refresh by changing the key bottom right to some other key then back to F concert.)



Here is the file, click to import:
Song trumpet G key - Unknown Composer


Does any of this help?

You ask other questions in previous posts, I will make some comments on these once we have you understanding what we are doing here.

 

[tjjazz]

dflat,

Yes, this is an enormous help, and I can't thank you enough for your kindness and patience.

OK, I was able to replicate the desired outcome by using your instructions. I was going to show you what I'd done but I started by only inputting the first 4 chords so I could see if it worked without risking wasting a lot of energy. I was successful in that I had the chord scales reflecting the notes I'd play on a Bb horn.

When I went back to edit the piece so I could complete the rest of the changes I was not able to get it to revert to G in the edit window.

I'll try doing the entire set of changes now as you instruct and see how that works.

Best Regards,
TJ

 

[tjjazz]

dflat,

So how does this look?

I'm not sure if I'm using the #9 properly. I am assuming that doing this is the same as the "+9" in the music, which is augmented, right?

Regards,
TJ

 

[dflat]

When I went back to edit the piece so I could complete the rest of the changes I was not able to get it to revert to G in the edit window.

If you are going to re-edit the song it would be best to transpose it into Bb trumpet key again, so you can follow your printed chart which is in trumpet key.
Choose the key (in this case G) from the Key sig menu and click the Set and transpose button, then you can make your alterations; then again choose F and Set and transpose back to concert F key, Save, Close.

Background:
The SET button is used to lock in a default key for the key the chords are in. (It cannot know what key you are entering the chords in, because songs or exercises have different chords throughout, so you use SET to tell it what key.) This is why you SET a key when you first start inputting a new song (by default it says C, but with any other key, it needs to be changed and set for those chords—whether the chords are concert or transposed for a transposing instrument, just make sure it is the key for the chords you see in edit mode).
For re-editing, assuming you have transposing instrument chords, use Set and transpose after you open so you are in transposed instrument key (so you don't need to transpose in your head to enter or check the chords), then just before you save, Set and transpose back to concert key.
You should only need to use SET the once to tell it what key the chords are in. If you mistakenly have clicked this instead of Set and transpose, undo, or change the key back from the menu and Set again.
The key on the left of the drop down key menu shows the current key the chart is set to and should always match up with the key the chords are based in, no matter whether it is concert key or transposing instrument key. You will see it change when you press Set or Set and transpose.

Yes use #9.

Nice to know you are making progress with this. I will make some additional comments a little later, but let me know if you can re-edit what you have done and are becoming familiar with Set and transpose as you go in and out of edit.

 

[dflat]

... even something as simple as inserting bar lines seems confusing (do I use my mouse to click where I want the bar line? space bar? tab?)

Because you are doing video editing and presumably used to key commands, you will probably find it easier to insert (left single) barlines with the key command (cmd-B) but you can click on the barline buttons if you prefer (all the different barlines have a key command; you will find these in Edit>Insert>Barline). The left one will be inserted at the left of the space the cursor is in. You can either click to a space where you want to add the next barline and/or chord or use the Return key to move along. Unless I am putting a double barline at the end of a system (line) I usually continue with the Return key at the end of a system, then insert a left barline at the new line below which automatically inserts one at the end of the previous line for you (meaning you do not need to insert a right barline at the end of a system for single barlines).

Another challenge as I've mentioned, is that it frequently barks at me because I don't construct the measures properly and I don't exactly understand where the chord goes in the measure (I assume right at the beginning) and then how many spaces (if any) go between it and other chord in the same measure.

Normally we put the chord symbol where the left barline is (as you probably have noticed in the Exercise songs that were in the app when you purchased it). This is where the chord starts and where the beat starts when playing the measure and makes sense if there is two chords in a measure. (If in 4/4 time, the second chord would occupy the 3rd space where it is played for beat 3 and 4). (However the player will assume you mean a single chord to start at the first beat of the measure if you have it placed in the middle instead.)
The measure does not necessarily have to have 4 spaces per measure, but doing it this way means there are 4 bars across the page (4 bars per system), and this works for songs in 4/4, 3/4 and 5/4 etc. As you might know, quite often, songs are in 8 bar or 16 bar sections and so this makes it tidy with each section starting on a new line. (For long songs, some use the New song 96 bar template which squeezes the song into one page, but you can only have 2 chords per measure. Actually you can mix-and-match the spaces in each bar if you need to (or don't have time to tidy up the song before you need to practice) as it looks for barlines (not necessarily its width) (although sometimes the placement of multiple chords within can cause a problem). If you have a measure (bar) without any chords in it, it will be ignored, which is why your song still should play correctly (from the example you show) where it plays the measure with the chord in for 4 beats and continues on to the next, skipping blank measures (a measure defined as between two barlines).

We have a couple of helpful references here which might now make a little more sense to you:
https://forums.irealpro.com/threads/iReal-Pro-layout-conventions.194/
https://forums.irealpro.com/threads/GLOSSARY-iReal-Pro.188/
Also within the app, Help.

To input a simple chord progression like F, Bb7, C7, F where there is one chord per measure, you would simply type:
f return (4 times) cmd-b b b 7 return (4 times) cmd-b c 7 return (4 times) f return (4 times)
where return (4 times) means pressing the Return key four times (to input the chord then) move the cursor along (although you could just as well click to the next place you want to insert the barline and chord).
Then end with a double bar, click on the right double bar or (right) final bar button (or their equivalent key command).

... the language of jazz chords is subject to lots of inconsistencies.

Unfortunately jazz chords were not completely standardized (no international body to formulate the rules) so there are variations of the same thing. You will be able to find 'conversion' charts grouping the equivalent chord symbols together. Some musicians prefer using abbrevations rather than symbols, for example writing 'aug' for augmented but others prefer + or # because these take up less room and quicker to write or type (however if handwritten or in less than ideal lighting circumstances, could be mistaken for some other symbol or missed altogether). There is limited space in iReal Pro so we have had to mostly use symbols rather than abbreviations.
The new notation software, Dorico, currently offers six options to choose from to format your chord symbols (depending on how the composer or engraver wants the chord symbols to appear) according to each of the specified conventions (for example, Brandt-Roemer, Indiana, Jazz Standard)—some are more symbol based, others with abbreviations (being presumably more understandable for some), some with parentheses and others, without (and then options to override or develop your own).
You become accustomed to different symbols over time and don't think much about it. iReal Pro provides the menu options of the chord qualities which the player understands. You can get used to how to type them in (especially the common ones) and using the Return key and key commands, the process to input a song can become quite fast.

I also don't really understand how to insert the end bar. Again, do I tab, or just click my mouse ahead a bit, or space bar? iRP sometimes tells me that it can't understand my measures. I don't recall the exact language.

You can insert an end barline after you have input your final chord, which would either be the right double barline or final barline, although if you are preferring 4 spaces per measure, you might like to move the cursor along with the Return key (or click) a few spaces ahead before adding this right barline.

If you adhere to 4 spaces per measure, the first chord is at the beginning of the bar and the chord qualities (the bit after the letter name of the chord) are from the menu, there should not be any errors on pressing Play. Remember empty measures are ignored and it will accept less than 4 spaces per measure as outlined above. However if an error is found in a measure, it will tell you which one (you have to count along to find it) and should tell you what is wrong, for example it does not know the chord you have entered or too many chords in the measure, or it cannot work out where to start playing a chord mid-measure because of its placement within the measure.

It looks like you have made good progress with what you have done. You might like to edit (or duplicate and edit) it according to the conventions we use for formatting a song.

Let us know how you are progressing, thanks!

 

[tjjazz]

I've not been ignoring this thread, but between all of the areas I'm working on during my practice sessions (daily lip routines for endurance, range, flexibility and tone, shedding parts for two big bands, blues scales, and actual improv) I don't have as much time as I'd like to play with iRP.

So as a very simple exercise I created a new iRP chart with just the changes for Backrow Politics by Gordon Goodwin. It's relatively simple, 8 bars of A7 followed by 4 bars of D7, back to A7, and then a few others before returning to A7). I was able to input the Key as A in the Set section, input the chords, and then set and transpose. I then changed the key in the lower right down one step for concert and it now reads the chord scales for a Bb horn.

One thing I did notice, unrelated to the rest of all of this is that the little sideways "play" button has disappeared from my player. I'm on 8.0.3 for Mac OS Sierra. Anyone else have that? I can still start and pause the song by clicking in that box previously occupied by the triangle, but it's strange that it's missing.

Regards,
TJ

 

[dflat]

One thing I did notice, unrelated to the rest of all of this is that the little sideways "play" button has disappeared from my player. I'm on 8.0.3 for Mac OS Sierra. Anyone else have that? I can still start and pause the song by clicking in that box previously occupied by the triangle, but it's strange that it's missing.

Update iReal Pro, the play button bug has been resolved. Sorry about that.
Good to hear you have been able to use iReal Pro for practice.
Hope you are having some fun now

 

[tjjazz]

dflat,

Thanks for all the information. Without you I would most likely not be using the app. I'm using it now and learning, and looking forward to exploiting more of its features in the future.

Now back to learning all my scales. = )

-tj