Major 7 augmented; Dominant 7 augmented

[nimbleswitch]

Were my ear better I wouldn't need to bother you folks with this, but alas . . .

I need to enter both major 7 and dom 7 augmented chords -- i.e., 1 3 #5 7 and 1 3 #5 b7, but I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

The editor seems to accept: C+, C7+ and C+7. But it will not accept the triangle for major AND the + for augmented both, in either order. When I try to enter the triangle, it enters ^ instead, and will not play that chord back.

Does C+7 play back as C major 7 augmented or C dom 7 augmented?
What does C7+ play as?
What does C+ play as?

Thanks very much.

 

[pdxdjazz]

This doesn't address your question concerning the use of "+" but,
both Δ7#5 and 7#5 are in the chord quality picker.

Augmented Test - Unknown Composer


The first 7 chords are recognized by the player, the last 3 aren't.

C7#5, C7+ and C+7 seem to be recognized by the player as being the same.
)BOB

 

[nimbleswitch]

Thanks, Bob. Would you believe that so far I hadn't discovered the chord quality picker at all? Never looked under those three horizontal lines at the left except when in Text for D.S. al Coda, etc. I thought that's all they were for. Thanks for the wake up!

 

[dflat]

The editor seems to accept: C+, C7+ and C+7. But it will not accept the triangle for major AND the + for augmented both, in either order. When I try to enter the triangle, it enters ^ instead, and will not play that chord back.

Does C+7 play back as C major 7 augmented or C dom 7 augmented?
What does C7+ play as?
What does C+ play as?

The ^ you see is the actual text character used for maj. If you are on the Mac version, you use this from your computer keyboard to create the triangle (other devices have our own keyboard and you will see the triangle directly.) In the chart, assuming the quality is recognised, the ^ will turn into a triangle - but if you add extra characters for the chord quality that are not recognised as a chord quality, the triangle will revert to the ^ character because it cannot map to the internal qualities we have (the ones you see in the quality menu) and our chord font.
It is probably best to use the quality menu because these are recognised by the player, but you might find it faster to input via the keyboard instead once you get used to the way the quality should be entered.
We currently do not allow the triangle with + (you will find ^7#5.)

We allow some alternative spellings, like C7+ or C+7 or Cmaj7#5 but this is not extensive, and if there is anything the player does not recognise, it will warn you it cannot play it.

C7+ has the (minor-) 7th (Bb) and #5
C+ has no (minor-) 7th - it is just an augmented (5th)

 

[pdxdjazz]

C7+ has the (minor-) 7th (Bb) and #5
C+ has no (minor-) 7th - it is just an augmented (5th)

How is the C#5 mapped?
)BOB

 

[dflat]

How is the C#5 mapped?
)BOB

That is an interesting one, it is a C# chord with the 5th only (hence C+ is good to use!). I am not sure I have ever seen C #5 meaning Caug.
(Did I answer the question?)

 

[pdxdjazz]

Absolutely.
I was comparing what I heard while listening to the Augmented Test chart using various styles.
I was hearing the "augmented fith” without realizing that (of course) it was the "natural fifth" of the C#...(duh)
I really need to avoid tunnel-vision.
Thanks,
)BOB

 

[DaleMac]

While we're in the neighborhood... I find myself frequently wishing ▵7♭5 was one of the alternatives. I'm usually able to get pretty close using workarounds (E-/F or G7/F for example) but of course those will mess up the bass line. So, if you're considering additional chord voices, please include this one in the list.

 

[dflat]

While we're in the neighborhood... I find myself frequently wishing ▵7♭5 was one of the alternatives ...

the ▵7#11 does not work for you because you want to indicate the 5 being flattened? Unfortunately there is no chord quality equivalence for this (in other words, if you type in ▵7♭5 as a custom quality, it will not map to ▵7#11 for the player to interpret). However I am not aware of our player voicings contain the 5th, we would have to check our code for it, although I see one of our piano diagrams shows the 5th.
We are not updating the voicings just at the moment. As you are aware, it is a detailed process, but thanks for letting us know.

 

[DaleMac]

The only current ♭5 options combine the Dominant 7, which is why I can't use those. Here's one example of my work-around (on the first chord):

https://forums.irealpro.com/threads/Never-Never-Land-(from-the-musical-Peter-Pan).8832/

Since I play piano (and mute that track) it makes no practical difference to me. I was just considering other instruments, and the improvisational scale option. F^9#11 does come very close, but doesn't emphasize the ♭5 in the melody. So, like I said, just wanted to toss that into the hat.

 

[dflat]

...F^9#11 does come very close, but doesn't emphasize the ♭5 in the melody.

Just so I am clear what you mean, do you mean the b5 (#11) is not at the top of the voicings all the time in the player?

 

[DaleMac]

It is at the top. Just the way I play crushed chords (in this case E-F-A-B) my brain hears ♭5 rather than #11 an octave higher. Probably makes no different in theory, but I never took music theory

 

[dflat]

It is at the top. Just the way I play crushed chords (in this case E-F-A-B) my brain hears ♭5 rather than #11 an octave higher.

Thanks, I think I understand what you are saying.
The use of either b5 or #11 (or other pairs like 13 or 6) do not specify the octave in the voicings. You can voice say, the b5 anywhere, top, bottom, middle; the same with #11.
You might now be wondering why the chord qualities use numbers above 8 (the octave). Extended chords are built with thirds, so we get (1, 3, 5, 7) then 9, 11, 13 (it stops after that because the notes are the same after the second octave). There should be information elsewhere if you want to follow this up sometime.

If you have the Piano diagrams installed (you might not, because you already play well) the Library shows different voicings for each chord quality and you can see that the notes change positions with no single note on the top, no matter what the quality numbers are.

About your comment about other instrumentalists playing with iReal Pro’s piano and its voicings, it is programmed the same, some of the voicings have the b5 (#11) at the top of the voicing (like you voice it) and other times (being reasonably random) it will have it inside the voicing. You probably know this, but the top note of any voicing tends to sound more prominent, when you play the chord’s notes at the same volume, so yes, the upper extension notes of the extended chords (like #11) will get slightly ‘lost’ if it is in the middle of a voicing (meaning other notes are sounding on top).
But I think as an instrumentalist develops their ear (perhaps playing with a pianist or guitarist) they will be able to hear the voicings, no matter what note is on top. This is what (particularly jazz) ear training develops.

I hope some of this is useful to you

 

[DaleMac]

Very useful and I'll keep this in mind for charts I intend to post in the forum. You're right, I don't have the piano diagrams, so I won't see what results from using E-/F, G7/F, F^7#11 or F^9#11. Whichever sounds best to my ear within the Player's particular programming may not always be the best choice for someone trying to study the chart. Likewise, floating a ♭ symbol in the text field isn't a great solution. (BTW, most of the sheet music I saw online has a simple F° for the first chord of Never Never Land.)
I hereby withdraw my request for ▵7♭5, with apologies to Nimbleswitch for hijacking his thread

Footnote: I learned very early on that singers don't like it if the pianist plays the melody note when they're singing. And bass players don't like it when you play their root note. This greatly influenced how I schmush chord voicings together to stay out of everyone's way, and may give a clue why I think ♭5 rather than #11.

 

[Bobsax]

I like the sound of just the 3rd and 7th.

The 3rd is really the only important one.
The rest are like spices
......
..and we all know about too many cooks in the kitchen

 

[nimbleswitch]

. . . I hereby withdraw my request for ▵7♭5, with apologies to Nimbleswitch for hijacking his thread . . .

I don't consider it hijacked at all — just developed into a very interesting thread. Thanks.