Chord thoughts

[Jbjazz]

Hi there, first post. I registered here to talk about my chord symbol preferences but at this point I’m thinking that the best solution would be to have users be able to control their own library of “valid” chord symbols. I don’t know much about the technical aspects so I’m not sure if this is feasible. I have my reasons for writing chords the way I do, and probably everyone feels the same way.
Well anyhow, I’d like to be able to use the augmented symbol “+” for augmented chords. E.G., A7+5 or C^+5. I get that the sharp symbol is there for this, but I guess I prefer the “+” because it means “augmented” and I’m trying to notate augmented chords.
It would be nice to be able to add “#11” or “+5” directly after the triangle for extensions on major 7th chords. It seems like you have to specify “7” first, but that seems redundant as the triangle already stands for “maj7”, and anyway if you are making chord charts for jazz musicians to interpret, the baseline assumption for ALL chords is that they are 7th chords, at least. I never actually write “7” unless I am specifying a dominant chord. On my charts I aim to communicate clearly, quickly, with the least ink possible, to the worst reader on the gig. I only specify extensions in cases when the melody requires it. I would prefer a library of voicings which supports that economy better.
But again, maybe letting everyone follow their own preferences would be the best.

 

[pdxdjazz]

When you use chords that are written to be recognized by the player, you will have backing-track/practice functionality. Your charts will also use the chord symbols that are familiar to the many thousands of musicians using iReal pro.
Recognized chords are listed in the chord menu in the editor.

For your own read-only gig charts you can pretty much follow your preferred conventions. In the iRp editor, non-recognized chords will be written in blue. When the chart is saved, your chords will be printed on the chart.
When the iRp player encounters an unrecognized chord, it only sounds the root bass note.

More
https://forums.irealpro.com/threads/Cmaj7add9.18916/
)BOB

 

[CyrilleB]

A good way to solve this is to have alternate notation preferences in the general setting (the same way we can choose between the "m" and "-" character for minor chords). Just need to add a few others common chord symbols. That would also free up space in the chord library to add some other new chords.
For ex: I don't see the point of having both ∆7 and ∆ chords or -7b5 and ∅ and ∅7 in the library. The preferred chord symbol could be set in the app setting

 

[CyrilleB]

Here's below the equivalence of the chords in the library:

C∆7 = C∆
C∅ = C∅7 = C-7b5
C7b5 = C7#11
C7#5 = C7b13
C9b5 = C9#11
C7b9b13 = C7b9#5
C7b9b5 = C7b9#11
C11 = C7sus

That's about 9 chords that could be removed from the chord library if they can be added instead as preference in the app option setting (just like "m" or "-" for minor chords)

 

[Bobsax]

I suggest turning chords off with just bass and hearing the scales. Paul Desmond does this several versions of Take Five.
Also the "Holy Grail" of this approach is Ravels Bolero

 

[joegold]

OK. Here's a few suggestions....

1. More chord types.
Maj7b5
Min13
Dom7b5/#5
Etc., etc.

More triads with added extensions: E.g. C(addb9), Cm(add11), etc. etc.

Actually, a chord-type builder where the user can specify the exact chord construction he/she wants for any chord symbol would be the ultimate way to go.
E.g. C(sus#4) could be specified as C F# G.
[Of course the bass lines would have to be able to constrain themselves to these newly defined chords too.]
Etc., etc.

2. One of the 2 settings for Embellished Chords during Playback affects the relationship between the bass note and the chord voicing such that the root is sometimes omitted from the chord voicing.
I'm not sure if it's the on or the off setting.
This often yields unintended results with slash chords.
I'd rather have the root always present in the chord voicing no matter what the bass note is.

3. I'd like to have the ability to constrain the bass lines to the chord tones within the chord symbol or to a specified chord-scale.
E.g. Sometimes on a written dom7 chord with alterations I'll hear a violation of those altered extensions in the bass line.
E.g. A descending bass line on a written C7b5 chord might have an A nat in it when the tune is calling out for the whole tone scale.
[Note: C7b5 specifically might not be a good example of this.
I'd have to fish around to find one that always seems to bug me.]
Now, I realize that this is something that real bass players might do too in the real world.
But if you're practicing a chord-scale relationship over C7b5 that doesn't have the A nat in it, it can mess up your ears.

4. More control over the dual Style Playback Styles, e.g Latin/Swing.
Very often that style will work as expected on the 1st pass through the form but not on subsequent passes.
Actually, what would be better would be if the user could simply specify the Playback Style he/she wants at every point in the tune.

5. The ability to have chord shots on upbeats would be great.
One way might be to halve the space taken up by each timing segment within a measure so that, say, a 4/4 measure would have 8 time divisions rather than 2 or 4.
I.e. Expanding a 4/4 measure to 4 segments allows you to put a chord on beats 2 or 4.
Increasing that to 8 segments could allow for chords to change on the upbeats too.
But 8 normal sized segments would take up a lot of room which is why I'm suggesting being able to halve the amount of space they take up.

My guess is that many of these suggestions simply won't be possible with the current architecture of the app, or we would have seen them by now.
I just thought I'd ask anyway.

 

[pdxdjazz]

1. More chord types.
Maj7b5
Min13
Dom7b5/#5
Etc., etc.

More triads with added extensions: E.g. C(addb9), Cm(add11), etc. etc.

Actually, a chord-type builder where the user can specify the exact chord construction he/she wants for any chord symbol would be the ultimate way to go.
E.g. C(sus#4) could be specified as C F# G.
[Of course the bass lines would have to be able to constrain themselves to these newly defined chords too.]
Etc., etc.

2. One of the 2 settings for Embellished Chords during Playback affects the relationship between the bass note and the chord voicing such that the root is sometimes omitted from the chord voicing.
I'm not sure if it's the on or the off setting.
This often yields unintended results with slash chords.
I'd rather have the root always present in the chord voicing no matter what the bass note is.

3. I'd like to have the ability to constrain the bass lines to the chord tones within the chord symbol or to a specified chord-scale.
E.g. Sometimes on a written dom7 chord with alterations I'll hear a violation of those altered extensions in the bass line.
E.g. A descending bass line on a written C7b5 chord might have an A nat in it when the tune is calling out for the whole tone scale.
[Note: C7b5 specifically might not be a good example of this.
I'd have to fish around to find one that always seems to bug me.]
Now, I realize that this is something that real bass players might do too in the real world.
But if you're practicing a chord-scale relationship over C7b5 that doesn't have the A nat in it, it can mess up your ears.

4. More control over the dual Style Playback Styles, e.g Latin/Swing.
Very often that style will work as expected on the 1st pass through the form but not on subsequent passes.
Actually, what would be better would be if the user could simply specify the Playback Style he/she wants at every point in the tune.

5. The ability to have chord shots on upbeats would be great.
One way might be to halve the space taken up by each timing segment within a measure so that, say, a 4/4 measure would have 8 time divisions rather than 2 or 4.
I.e. Expanding a 4/4 measure to 4 segments allows you to put a chord on beats 2 or 4.
Increasing that to 8 segments could allow for chords to change on the upbeats too.
But 8 normal sized segments would take up a lot of room which is why I'm suggesting being able to halve the amount of space they take up.

My guess is that many of these suggestions simply won't be possible with the current architecture of the app, or we would have seen them by now.
I just thought I'd ask anyway.

Our discussion threads are limited (for the most part) to a single topic in order to keep everything focused, on-topic and orderly.

Most of your post was “chord” related so it was moved to the existing “chord” discussion thread.

There are other discussion threads relating to your other topics.

Thanks for sharing
)BOB

 

[judddanby]

Here's below the equivalence of the chords in the library:

C∆7 = C∆
C∅ = C∅7 = C-7b5
C7b5 = C7#11
C7#5 = C7b13
C9b5 = C9#11
C7b9b13 = C7b9#5
C7b9b5 = C7b9#11
C11 = C7sus

That's about 9 chords that could be removed from the chord library if they can be added instead as preference in the app option setting (just like "m" or "-" for minor chords)

Some of these are not really equivalent. For example, #11 allows for 5 to be included in a voicing, but b5 directs the player not to.

 

[CyrilleB]

I wish it would work that way. But iReal pro player treats both b5 and #11 chords the same way (unless there was a recent update that I'm not aware of)

 

[MCJazzer]

Sorry, I don't agree that any chord in a jazz song is assumed to be a 7th chord of some kind - what about maj6 chords? Those are the backbone of the Swing Era harmonic style (Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, etc.). Then there are min6 chords, maj & min 6/9's, sus chords that don't have a 7th, etc.

If you're playing a straight-ahead or even a jazz-altered 12 bar blues, THEN, yeah, you can assume every chord will be a dom. 7th chord (the flat 7th, min 7th, whatever you want to call it - B flat in a C chord).

To me, there's a difference between "dominant" chords that have a dominant/flat/minor 7th chord tone, & "color" chords, such as a maj7, maj9, maj6, add9, sus2 (aka sometimes known as the Steely Dan "mu major" chord), etc.

The slash chords are kinda enigmatic - you could call D/C a C13#11, but my jazz profs in school would disagree. They'd say, "Where's the dom. 7th?" (in classical theory, it would be 3rd inversion b7 - J.S. Bach loved those). In a way, slash chords are more specific - F/G could be called G9sus, but I've also heard it called a IV/V chord. I appreciate that when I input a slash chord, the iReal player gives me exactly the sound I want (essential for S. Dan & Todd Rundgren songs).

I also appreciate that iReal has the 5 chord option - works great in many hard rock songs.

 

[CyrilleB]

I don't think anyone has said jazz tunes supposed to have 7th chords everywhere. But I do agree with you. Many jazz tunes (especially old ones) uses 6th chords instead of 7th chords. And yes, a D/C is not the same as a C13#11, etc. Removing one note in a chord changes its color. In some cases they can substituted, but not always.
iReal pro has a good chord library, but there are some important chords missing (I've posted a list a while ago). Yes, it would be good to have a C triad with a #4. Using with other bass notes (slashes), it could help creating many other chords

 

[MCJazzer]

Acttually (& not to pick on anybody) the 1st post of this thread says:

"...if you are making chord charts for jazz musicians to interpret, the baseline assumption for ALL chords is that they are 7th chords, at least."

 

[pdxdjazz]

Acttually (& not to pick on anybody) the 1st post of this thread says:

"...if you are making chord charts for jazz musicians to interpret, the baseline assumption for ALL chords is that they are 7th chords, at least."

FWIW That’s the opinion of the member who posted it.
The only opinion that counts is that of the band leader who signs your check.
)BOB

 

[MCJazzer]

LOL! Haven't met that guy lately...